A Lokpal Critique
The following is a collection of points from online debates that I have been part of, consolidated as an article. That corruption is a problem in India or most developing economies is not anybody's secret. But the rampant misusing of the power of suggestion by a ``corporations'' backed media to counter the electorate process by promoting a non-ballot based center of power is even more mischievous. The Jan Lokpal Andolan with an old simple looking man called Anna Hazare as its poster boy, heavily publicized by the national media is the talk of the day in India today. With a country drenched in idol worship, with footing in the dominant religion of Hinduism, to the god like status given to popular media idols such as the ones in Bollywood, a properly chosen archetype of a simple saint like man (that does seem to draw plenty of inspiration in the country's history, with saints like Tukaram, Dynaneshwar etc standing up against the established social order) to supposedly counteract a supposed social evil like 'monetary' corruption is quite intelligent. But tbe brilliance of feeding the emotional senses of the public a well publicized melodrama to promote an agenda that further reduces the choice in the hands of 'people' to direct their own destiny is what seperates this movement from other intelligent media campaings. Alas, whereas the ideologies of Tukaram, Dyaneshwar etc favored the transfer of power in the hands of the people, the brilliant minds behind the Lokpal are bent on transferring the power in the hands of a select few.
To get a better idea about the actual issues with the proposal, let us look at the draft of the Lokpal Bill itself.
http://www.annahazare.org/pdf/Jan%20lokpal%20bill%20by%20Expert%20(Eng).pdf
Let us move to the portions which talk about the committee and its selection. The Lokpal Bill claims that a selection committee consisting of the following shall be set up:
1. The Chairpersons of both Houses of Parliament : Sounds fair enough.
2. Two senior most judges of Supreme Court : Sometime back a Supreme Court judge commented against the possibility of reservations in judge selections in the Supreme Court. Such statements are obviously drenched in bias by the judge who works for a public institution which hardly has any representation from 85 percent of India made up of the SC/ST/OBCs and Muslims . Especially, when the statement by the judge does not qualify as a constitutional mandate, but only reflects his own bias.
3. Two senior most Chief Justices of High Courts :Point 2. above
4. All Nobel Laureates of Indian Origin: The politics, leg pulling involved in academia is legendary. Expecting, an academic, no matter what his award to be of a clear conscience is fallacious.
5. Chairperson of National Human Rights Commission: Who happen to be former supreme court judges etc, instead of ground level activists who actually have fought substantial battles for the procurement of human rights.
6. Last two Magsaysay Award winners of Indian origin: Point 4. above
7. Controller and Auditor General of India: So the implication is that an IAS officer, who gets a minimum of 5 crore dowry, somehow is of a clear conscience.
8. Chief Election Commissioner: Point 7. above
9. Bharat Ratna Award winners: Now it starts getting even more ridiculous. Can the likes of Lata Mangeshkar, AR Rahman or some talented artist, sportsman etc have any idea about the pulse of an entire nation.
10. After the first set of selection process, the outgoing members and Chairperson of Lokpal.
As we read on, we even are presented with examples of the ridiculousness involved in the framing of the bill with vague statements such as "The members and Chairperson should have unimpeachable integrity and should have demonstrated their resolve and efforts to fight against corruption in the past". Looking at the selection procedure we come up with the conclusion that the relevant individual talked in the statement really amount to a biased court judge, a dowry taking IAS officer, Lata mangeshkar, AR rahman, a spiritually messed up academic etc. All of whom are in the highest probability would never be an SC/ST/OBC, who make up 85 percent of the country.
Now even if an assumption is made that the amateurness involved in the selection procedures of the proposed Lokpal really counteracts the proposed claim that the committe would atleast be non-corrupt as corruption is an issue that is largely perpetuated by the elected representatives of the people (as claimed by the Lokpal brigade); Then the whole debate instead could definitely be enriched by demanding a Lokpal committee, made up of international human rights activists/stalwarts, so that they would atleast not be biased towards any particular community in India. The likes of Nelson Mandela, Aung san suu kyi etc could be perfect choices. If the possible complains are one's relating to national integrity, then one could safely comment that such objections don't hold any water as majority of the investment in (buying away of) India is anyway foreign in nature. So the counter question would be as to why should monetary rule by outsiders be ok, but social rulings by international human stalwarts be considered not ok?
Let us try to simplify things further and ask why does the Anna Hazare anti-corruption movement simply not take the route of the ballot, get elected and then amend the constitution as needed to fight corruption, just as any individual who values the democratic nature of the Indian republic, would do. Referendums are never the modus operandi in the workings of democratic institutions. Ideas which need to be framed as policies are taken to the people by political organizations who if elected pass laws in the respective assemblies. Anna Hazare has more political advertising at this disposal than any other politician in India history. If the issue of corruption is the number one issue in the country, his modus operandi would have been to translate the public sentiment to the ballot by organizing his own political front. It is definitely easier and more worthwhile than fasting. The fact that he shies away from such a direction, basically points to the fact that the issue of corruption even though being important is still a media created phenomenon.
But if corruption is not the biggest problem in India today, then why is the corporate media so hell bent on publicizing the Anna Hazare movement? Who would be the prime examples of the polity that would be affected by Jan Lokpal in the wrong way? One can easily find example of these, who are advertised out of proportion as being corrupt by a biased national English speaking media. The likes of Mayawati, whose net worth is just 50 crores, while the IAS officers working under her may be worth more than 100 crores each and most lowercaste politicians fall in this category. The people who would not be affected are the likes of Arun Shourie, who sold the Centaur hotel at 80 crores as the disinvestment minister in the BJP government, only to be resold by the buyer of the hotel in a few months at 160 crores. Arun Shourie is about the ideology of removing participation of lowercastes from white collared jobs. The BJP intelligentsia that fooled everyone with promises of Ram Mandir (which was plainly an excuse of diverting the consolidation of 85 percent of india the SC/ST/OBCs by the mandal commission) really accelerated disinvestment (selling of public sector companies to the private sector at a loss), in effect neutering the gains attained through mandal. The above may be generalizations, with issues being more subtle and involved, however they do work well in giving us a flavor of the intended consequences of a Lokpal office.
Which brings us to the main issue. The primary issue is that corruption is still not the main issue affecting the majority of India. However, the issue has been advertised as being the one that would take care of ills affecting Indian society and by some very weird leaps in logic, is claimed to be a cure for issues such as poverty. However, the correlations are really a mirage. Even the promise of a free market economy being the road to economy prosperity does not apply to India Inc, which is far from a free market enterprise. A free market by its very definition does not exist in an economic system, where a few corporations control the majority of production and supply. Far from what India is and far from what it will ever become, if the narrow minded issue of corruption being the most important thing for the country to deal with is put forth. The solution really is about policies to get the majority of the country in the economic market, be it through encouraging entrepreneurship from disadvantaged poor communities or otherwise, so that the guy who is poor actually feels that it is corruption that is preventing him from participating in the market. It is then that he would vote for candidates who are hell bent on destroying corruption, tackling the problem head on. The widening gap between the rich and poor is independent of corruption and would continue to exist even if everyone was not corrupt in the bribe taking sense. Even the 2G scam was just about some guy taking bribes in giving out contracts. Ambani's existence does not do good to the vast majority of the country, whether a government official takes bribe from him or not. The fact that the Anna Brigade does not even want to think about following the electoral route, but is dancing around a melodramatic movement, blaming the bribe takers, but getting support from the bribe givers (the corporations and the media they sponsor) really points to the intentions of the movement not being wholesome, towards the development of the society. Instead the obvious intent of transfer of actual transfer of power from the electorate that is the cornerstone of a democratic institution, to a bureaucracy that does not answer to the people, seems to be the sole motive behind this well publicized movement.
Tuesday, August 23, 2011
Sunday, May 1, 2011
Critique of Teltumbde's article "Crisis Of Ambedkarites And Future Challenges"
http://www.countercurrents.org/teltumbde220411.htm
Let me just make a few points here and there. Mr Teltumbde makes a big fallacy w...hen he states that the fight of the urban dalits is completely disconnected from the struggle of the rural dalits. If that was the case the BSP, which came to power on the votes of the rural dalits would never have come in to existence. The BSP came in to existence by the plank created by BAMCEF, which was a union of govt sc/st employees.
Dr Teltumbde points out that political power does not translate in to emancipation as you have quoted him, but at the same time makes emotional underpinnings to dalits being landless struggling against the ruling class. He also seems to be against this celebration of dalit industrialists as an excersise in copying the ruling castes. In some sense Dr Teltumbde is pointing to a communist logic that states that dalits have to stick to labour and fight against the oppressing elements which make up the industrailists etc (havent read the article in all its details, but this is what the gist of the article really seems to suggest). Dr Teltumbde does not seem to realize that a struggle getting framed as a policy matter needs to happen at the political power center in any democracy, so a share in the power centre is a must.
The statement that you have made above, about the enemies of the dalits being the obcs and most of the dalit problems are of a rural origin and all that matters is land rights had been used in a negative light prior to mandal with the uppercastes telling the backwards that the dalist are stealing their jobs thanks to reservations. Also talking about the backward castes, Dr teltumbde does not seem to mention that they are a fractured lot themselbes, with the minority land owning backward castes and the majority MBC;s or most backward castes living in a similar situation to the dalits. This union of MBCs and Mahadalits got Nitish kumar to power in Bihar.
Also, the statement that politival power does not change much seems so inane when u look at states such as UP, where even though crimes against dalits still exists, the majority consensus among the community has been one of increased self respect and assertion. The amount of land re-distributions, transferring of corrupt police officers who were against dalit interests etc are revolutionary.
Also hwo do you struggle for land redistribution. This problem is known to the dalits educated or uneducated since the forming of the country. The way of politics goes in steps. Before it used to be the upper-OBCs living in the villages discriminating against the dalits and the uppercastes not allowing dalits to progress in the cities. There was no clash of interests between the OBCs and uppercastes who were stuck with two different indias. The agitation for mandal comission which was primarly spearheaded by the educated urban dalits and which was for the benefit of the OBCs, got the OBC in to clash with the uppercastes. The OBCs began to realise that the actual source of economic stronghold lies in the cities and it is when this fracturing of the entire caste establishment that put two dominating entities against each other came up, that you had a pro-dalit party like BSP coming in to power. Following Kanshiramji, who said "as long as caste exists, i will use it for the betterment of my people" would in Dr Teltumbdes view be tantamount to following the path of brahminism.
Also Dr Teltumbde does not realize that in a globalized market the aim of dalits is to look for what oppurtunities come across. It does seem hypocritical to insult the guys who celebrated the coming of dalit entrepreneurs as a way of gearing the thinking of the community towards entrepreuership at the same time working as a top executive in a semi-private establishment of india.
Now, with this line of thought as to how representation does have its wisdom for dalits, minorities etc, I would like u guys to read my previous posts.
Also there is a difference between attacking raja and attacking mayawati. Raja is a corrupt guy who just happens to be a dalit. What mayawati or BSP symbolizes is an idea of empowerment of a community that has been demasculinized for millenia. And it is this sentiment of 'ruling' in a state according to your own terms in a country that even today disrespects your very existence, that makes dalits all around india identify with mayawati. It is this reason that I would appreciate you not using choice words when talking about her, just as you would not go calling a black guy a nigga, just because all blacks say it. The teltumbde article points to the mayawati statue building as being a plain ego building excersise. It is this identification that makes her celebrate her birthday grandiosely (which I frankly believe she does not do plainly because of narcissitiv tendencies), because the ire that she picks up from the uppercaste dominated press, makes her an idol of adulation among the dalits even more, who see such ire from the higher castes in their daily life. It is in such regards, that Dr Teltumbde does not understand the very activity of her building statues, which he plainly labels as an ego building, really represents an affirmation of identity among her electorate and plainly asking this electorate to identify itself as some ploretarait definition of communism is not even beginning to understand the emotional underpinnings of a viable movement among the dalits.
Let me just make a few points here and there. Mr Teltumbde makes a big fallacy w...hen he states that the fight of the urban dalits is completely disconnected from the struggle of the rural dalits. If that was the case the BSP, which came to power on the votes of the rural dalits would never have come in to existence. The BSP came in to existence by the plank created by BAMCEF, which was a union of govt sc/st employees.
Dr Teltumbde points out that political power does not translate in to emancipation as you have quoted him, but at the same time makes emotional underpinnings to dalits being landless struggling against the ruling class. He also seems to be against this celebration of dalit industrialists as an excersise in copying the ruling castes. In some sense Dr Teltumbde is pointing to a communist logic that states that dalits have to stick to labour and fight against the oppressing elements which make up the industrailists etc (havent read the article in all its details, but this is what the gist of the article really seems to suggest). Dr Teltumbde does not seem to realize that a struggle getting framed as a policy matter needs to happen at the political power center in any democracy, so a share in the power centre is a must.
The statement that you have made above, about the enemies of the dalits being the obcs and most of the dalit problems are of a rural origin and all that matters is land rights had been used in a negative light prior to mandal with the uppercastes telling the backwards that the dalist are stealing their jobs thanks to reservations. Also talking about the backward castes, Dr teltumbde does not seem to mention that they are a fractured lot themselbes, with the minority land owning backward castes and the majority MBC;s or most backward castes living in a similar situation to the dalits. This union of MBCs and Mahadalits got Nitish kumar to power in Bihar.
Also, the statement that politival power does not change much seems so inane when u look at states such as UP, where even though crimes against dalits still exists, the majority consensus among the community has been one of increased self respect and assertion. The amount of land re-distributions, transferring of corrupt police officers who were against dalit interests etc are revolutionary.
Also hwo do you struggle for land redistribution. This problem is known to the dalits educated or uneducated since the forming of the country. The way of politics goes in steps. Before it used to be the upper-OBCs living in the villages discriminating against the dalits and the uppercastes not allowing dalits to progress in the cities. There was no clash of interests between the OBCs and uppercastes who were stuck with two different indias. The agitation for mandal comission which was primarly spearheaded by the educated urban dalits and which was for the benefit of the OBCs, got the OBC in to clash with the uppercastes. The OBCs began to realise that the actual source of economic stronghold lies in the cities and it is when this fracturing of the entire caste establishment that put two dominating entities against each other came up, that you had a pro-dalit party like BSP coming in to power. Following Kanshiramji, who said "as long as caste exists, i will use it for the betterment of my people" would in Dr Teltumbdes view be tantamount to following the path of brahminism.
Also Dr Teltumbde does not realize that in a globalized market the aim of dalits is to look for what oppurtunities come across. It does seem hypocritical to insult the guys who celebrated the coming of dalit entrepreneurs as a way of gearing the thinking of the community towards entrepreuership at the same time working as a top executive in a semi-private establishment of india.
Now, with this line of thought as to how representation does have its wisdom for dalits, minorities etc, I would like u guys to read my previous posts.
Also there is a difference between attacking raja and attacking mayawati. Raja is a corrupt guy who just happens to be a dalit. What mayawati or BSP symbolizes is an idea of empowerment of a community that has been demasculinized for millenia. And it is this sentiment of 'ruling' in a state according to your own terms in a country that even today disrespects your very existence, that makes dalits all around india identify with mayawati. It is this reason that I would appreciate you not using choice words when talking about her, just as you would not go calling a black guy a nigga, just because all blacks say it. The teltumbde article points to the mayawati statue building as being a plain ego building excersise. It is this identification that makes her celebrate her birthday grandiosely (which I frankly believe she does not do plainly because of narcissitiv tendencies), because the ire that she picks up from the uppercaste dominated press, makes her an idol of adulation among the dalits even more, who see such ire from the higher castes in their daily life. It is in such regards, that Dr Teltumbde does not understand the very activity of her building statues, which he plainly labels as an ego building, really represents an affirmation of identity among her electorate and plainly asking this electorate to identify itself as some ploretarait definition of communism is not even beginning to understand the emotional underpinnings of a viable movement among the dalits.
A critique of Teltumbde's article "Another Reservation
http://www.countercurrents.org/teltumbde080410.htm
The deal is as to how he twists facts to make his case.
1) Dr Ambedkar only talked against political reservations having a time limit of 10 years, because they were useless. And he did not make such a case against reservations in jobs etc. Teltumbde knows all this but still lies about this.
2) More than half the reserved category jobs in the government are not filled, so dont get the deal about there actually being an issue about rich dalits taking away the jobs of the poor dalits.
3) Just as subcaste reservation has become an issue in states such as andhra pradesh, if it was misusage of reserved seats only by rich dalits as teltumbde points out, it would be more than easy to start a campaign by political parties demanding reservation only for poor dalits. This breakin up of the dalit consttituency has been something that has paid rich dividends in bihar with Nitish Kumar and MBCs. But the breaking up has been according to castes which have not garnered any share of reservation, against breaking the dalits in to so called poor and rich dalits. Please note that the MBC breaking up has been for reservations in posts requiring less qualifications, like ticket collectors etc in railways, which get filled by the quota candidates and are not the one's that second generation beneficiaries of the quota target, for which the quota never is fully filled.
4) Another clever instance of mixing words is where he talks about states using up their power to make laws to help growth of backwards, only to add to more reservations. I don't understand why reservations and new policies cannot go hand in hand.
5) The OBC reservations came in to effect because of agitations carried out primarily by the dalits. Initially the OBCs used to get jealous because of sc/st progressing through reservation, but mandal showed the OBCs that their beef on this matter should be with the uppercastes and not sc/sts. This goes completely against his statement "The elites of the BCs could skillfully transform the popular grudge against reservations for the SCs and STs into the passion for their extension to other backward castes, thus setting into motion the competitive backwardness to claim reservation." Then he talks about reservations opening up a pandoras box of sorts, while he feigns that he does not understand that it is these very sections taht have not had a share in teh working of the country that are really asking for the same.
6) He makes a statement that Kanshi ram talked about the chamcha age and hence naturally concludes that reservations are useless. Whereas it was BAMCEF which was a union of reserved employees working for the government that really ushered Kanshi Ram and BSP to the centre stage of indian politics. Completely twisting the whole context in which Kanshi Ram talked about the Chamcha age really makes him smell of being a brahmin stooge. The reason that most dalits using reservation don't openly come out in support of the dalit movement, is because of the casteism prevailing urban india, where these dalits have a lot to lose, be in professionally or in society. The problem there is not with reservations but societal attitudes.
The deal is as to how he twists facts to make his case.
1) Dr Ambedkar only talked against political reservations having a time limit of 10 years, because they were useless. And he did not make such a case against reservations in jobs etc. Teltumbde knows all this but still lies about this.
2) More than half the reserved category jobs in the government are not filled, so dont get the deal about there actually being an issue about rich dalits taking away the jobs of the poor dalits.
3) Just as subcaste reservation has become an issue in states such as andhra pradesh, if it was misusage of reserved seats only by rich dalits as teltumbde points out, it would be more than easy to start a campaign by political parties demanding reservation only for poor dalits. This breakin up of the dalit consttituency has been something that has paid rich dividends in bihar with Nitish Kumar and MBCs. But the breaking up has been according to castes which have not garnered any share of reservation, against breaking the dalits in to so called poor and rich dalits. Please note that the MBC breaking up has been for reservations in posts requiring less qualifications, like ticket collectors etc in railways, which get filled by the quota candidates and are not the one's that second generation beneficiaries of the quota target, for which the quota never is fully filled.
4) Another clever instance of mixing words is where he talks about states using up their power to make laws to help growth of backwards, only to add to more reservations. I don't understand why reservations and new policies cannot go hand in hand.
5) The OBC reservations came in to effect because of agitations carried out primarily by the dalits. Initially the OBCs used to get jealous because of sc/st progressing through reservation, but mandal showed the OBCs that their beef on this matter should be with the uppercastes and not sc/sts. This goes completely against his statement "The elites of the BCs could skillfully transform the popular grudge against reservations for the SCs and STs into the passion for their extension to other backward castes, thus setting into motion the competitive backwardness to claim reservation." Then he talks about reservations opening up a pandoras box of sorts, while he feigns that he does not understand that it is these very sections taht have not had a share in teh working of the country that are really asking for the same.
6) He makes a statement that Kanshi ram talked about the chamcha age and hence naturally concludes that reservations are useless. Whereas it was BAMCEF which was a union of reserved employees working for the government that really ushered Kanshi Ram and BSP to the centre stage of indian politics. Completely twisting the whole context in which Kanshi Ram talked about the Chamcha age really makes him smell of being a brahmin stooge. The reason that most dalits using reservation don't openly come out in support of the dalit movement, is because of the casteism prevailing urban india, where these dalits have a lot to lose, be in professionally or in society. The problem there is not with reservations but societal attitudes.
Monday, March 14, 2011
HC quashes UP govt order related to SC,ST quota in promotions
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HC quashes UP govt order related to SC,ST quota in promotions
In a setback to Uttar Pradesh government, the Lucknow bench of Allahabad High Court on Tuesday quashed its order providing reservation in promotions to state employees belonging to scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
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Vaibhav Wasnik indeed. the desires of 85 percent of the country, which finds itself as a voice that favors reservations, is panned down by the judiciary. isnt the constitution actually present to facilitate the voice of the people in to policy and if so why is the judiciary not in line with this thought. may be ambedkar did substitute manu, but the implementers are still manuwadi.
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Complainer
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Dude u r right in saying the control is still in hands of upper caste , but it will always remain so because of their historical inheritance and their dominant numbers and share in every institution.
for reservations, i think it will be in ...benefit for SC/STs in the long run, not to give them this. because the fight and struggle they will then have do, will only make them emerge stronger and confident in public places.
and this is the demand of time too.
in todays free market capitalist globalised and increasing antipluralist and (schizophrenia inducing :P) society, in hostels , in night clubs , in cricket grounds, in pubs , in dance stages, in auditoriums ...... if they want to enjoy their life and time and continue to feel at home in this world, the fight in a level field is the best way to empower them.
in India, one doesn't need much than a few cheap books and a motivation to excel in life. reservations deprive them from developing those various skills which their upper caste friends gradually develop by their own.
i have seen many SC/ST student who were bright and meritorious only until they passed a competitive exams by aid of reservation and went on in a collapse thereafter. their less studious pals , of their schoolmates went on to do better than them. what advantage they got from reservation except the lose and stigma of having got reservation- which make their public life hell.
reservations are just political issues. wars are being faught for them
as if these were a magic stick by which could prosper them in life and get happiness thereafter.
you may counter my thesis. by think deep down your heart, and you will not counter-argue.See More
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Vaibhav Wasnik
I hate facebook that it doesnt store all the wall debates. I would have just copied and pasted a previous post on a similar topic.
Well about yoru comment "Dude u r right in saying the control is still in hands of upper caste , but it will a...lways remain so because of their historical inheritance and their dominant numbers and share in every institution." That is what reservations are supposed to change. Only thing is that the supreme court which is supposed to make the constitution tune up in line with the will of the people, just manipulates the wordings in the document to apply an upper limit of 50 percent on reservations. That too when these reservations benefit 85 percent of the country's population. But then the courts are dominated by uppercastes so what can be expected.
Your comment on equal competition in a free market, somehow does not look at what even determines competition. Right from entry in to professinoal colleges, where manufactured intelligence from coaching centres really rule the roster. Have you ever questioned as to how many dalits even are present in these coaching centres, so that an equiproportional candidates make it in to professional colleges. And somehow in all this merit talk, the talk about privately owned donation based colleges are never even mentioned, when the number of seats in these colleges is far more than reserved seats in government colleges. Also the only marks that matter are the marks of money in your wallet, for admission in to these colleges.
Next when you go up the ladder. Jobs in the private sector are all about contacts. I don't have to write a big essay to tell you, why websites such as linkedin are the sugar among corporate professionals. Saying that jobs in the private sector are really about open competition is not really understanding the mechanics of hiring in these sectors.
Also, when did the CEO's of the top corporate institutions like Reliance, Tata's etc had to compete in an open competition to get their respective jobs. The only competition they had to succumb to was the proof that they were the blood heirs of their fathers companies, irrespective of their professional qualifications. It is suprising when these same corporations talk against reservations for jobs quite down the ladder in their companies.
You comment that reserved students generally underperform. I ask you why dont the counter-candidates I talked about above ever underpeform. I had written something quite some time ago, and forwarded that to my sc/st batchmates from IIT mumbai, most of whom are at really good positions in the private establishments today. Its a different story that they have become brahminic themselves now.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48448266/Merit
Also you have to realize that in the history of india, reservations were first utilized by the uppercastes during the british times, when cuttoff's had to be reduced by the british government as uppercastes indian could qualify to the civil services exams
http://www.chandrabhanprasad.com/frmHistoricalDocuments.aspx
Uppercastes wanted independence from british then. I dont even think dalits are asking something similar.
To close, the issue really is about capturing power in the economic sectors of the country. The problem about under performance of sc/sts is because of psychological harrasment faced by them in the educational institutions, rather than talents. Statements about open competitions are really about not thinking the issue clearly, because lot of intelligence that gets tested is really manufactured intelligence, which is more about nurture at home and expensive tutions, which the dalits are not even close to having a substantial amount of.See More
Also a few more points. in the private sector experience gets u paid more. But what are the chances of anyone even remembering what they did 2-3 years back.
Finally, jobs in almost most sectors are about repetitious learning. A guy from res...ervations or a general category in a year or 2 would be performing the same amount in useful output, because of human brains capability towards learning from repetitions. The questions against reservations and efficiency just become trivial after digesting this simple fact.See More
why insane dude. can't believe that an educated guy like you is just coming up with an emotional outburst instead of some logical reasoning. If electricity and water do happen to be extremely limited resources, there is a possibility that i...t might end up taking the quota route. I mean, in some sense this would not even go against the way waters of rivers are splits during international treaties.
PS I would have plainly deleted your comment, because of the politically incorrect way in which you used the word "untouchable" law. A guy educated from a university that is deemed the harvard of india, goes about making disparaging casteist remarks on a public forum, just goes to show how much inherent biases does exist even among educated uppercaste indians.
I am just curious as to how my american or other non-indian friends would feel if some harvard educated individual unabashedly used the word "nigger law", to describe affirmative actions in the US.See More
Complainer
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What I feel is the solution is to invest in renewable energy and innovations like rain water harvesting rather than creating division on name of cast. This is simply politics. The same govt that instigates us on name of cast has no vision ...of how they are going to solve problem of electricity and water. That is why when it will come to votes they will create more division because they simply did not move their asses to innovate. And on top of it they will invite US scientists to build some nuclear power plants having taken a handsome bribe when the whole world is moving towards something new. And on top of it, to run those insanely stupid nuclear plants they will again put reservation. Divide more!See More
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Acutally the word untouchable i used for the so called higher caste. It was a pun on this whole belief that we are divided and that some stupid politicians can divide us on the name of cast. Reservation and caste system is old school. We ne...ed to bring an atmosphere of collaboration, education and innovation. For that we don't need to look at caste. I think younger generation should be united on this. It is still the older generation than ours who are creating this division. We need to create resources from our own sweat and intelligence.See More
Dude, I would just like to add. The only thing wrong with reservations that I could not really argue against is that they deprive an uppercaste guy of a seat. On an individual level it does seem wrong. But the govt does not act in isolation.... The govt goes about implementing reservation, because that is what 85 percent of the country made up of sc/st/obc communities want. That is why even though the leaders of major political parties are from uppercastes (like arjun singh), they have to make sure that they stand up for reservations.
Hell, I am even for more radical cures. How about the government instead start giving out government supplier contracts to sc/st's, so that these communities build up capital and start following the line of entrepreneurship. This is because, the economics of the country is going along capitalism, whereas the mindset of the sc/st population has not even caught up to the appropriate possibilities.See More
Complainer
People like Arjun Singh are corrupt. I dont even care what cast he is. He is a corrupt man. If he would have gone and done education reforms, created better education policies, focussed on primary education, strengthened our villages and sm...all towns that would have helped. He should have built more education avenues for 85% population. He should have created competence. He had alll the resources. He choose reservation. Corrupt politics.
Education is the key. The government should focus on education. Govt supplier contracts to sc /st means what. There is a contractor who is already in a contracting business. This guy can compete. He has resources. He is arlready doing well. So create avenue for him. It is fallible. It solves nothing. We are talking about people who do not have resources. We need to bring those people up.See More
Complainer
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Vaibhav Wasnik Something similar on a national scale
http://www.indiatogether.org/dalit/events/bhopal.htm
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a small example. shoe making has been a traditional dalit occupation, but the guy that own bata is not a dalit. The contracts of shoes to the indian army itself is around 1 billion rupees. The base skills and ideas may be present, but the oppurtunities to capitalize on these skills are lacking. In these regards the govt can come in to play.
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Today shoe market is huge... I am pretty sure Bata did not get the govt contract on day one of his starting the business ... And will he have monopoly always .. No. If proper microfinancing is provided by the govt to the dalit shoe makers, ...through a cooperative or some set up, they can compete in the market. That itself is huge today. They can bid for govt contracts. I am of course assuming non-corrupt political system. But that is where the problem is - corruption. It is not in not having enough opportunities. It never was the case of lack of resource and opportunities as much as of corruption.See More
Complainer
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Apart from depriving upper caste guys, reservations also promote a sucker attitude: everyone feels they should prove that they are victims of something so that they can also be entitled to freebies.
Besides, crony-capitalism and the govt's l...icense permit raj create artificial shortages of good education, etc., making reservations hurt all the more.See More
Vaibhav Wasnik
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if everyone has a reason to ask for freebies then reservations would become trivial dont u think. The fact is that only uppercastes as a community have the reins of economic power and this just produces a self feeding effect, unless govern...ment steps in to redistribute oppurtuities.
Also in the history of india, reservations were first introduced to help uppercastes qualify to civil services exams during the british rule. Please check out the documents on the link below. If equality of oppurtunity really translated in to a demand for independence from the british, why caricature the lowercastes as the bad guys, when they are not even asking for independence.
http://www.chandrabhanprasad.com/frmHistoricalDocuments.aspx
Also the reason I say that the issue is really not about merit, but about the fear of uppercastes losing their hold over the country, because donation based seats, which outnumber reserved seats in magnitude and have much less of cut offs, dont catch the ire of the press or uppercastes.See More
Complainer
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just look at the gujjars and so many other classes in india, each insisting that they need to be classified as backward to get freebies, and rioting and killing people so they have their way. Donation based seats are usually of a much poore...r quality than the seats that are "reserved away". So they don't count.
It is "crony capitalism"/license permit raj/red tape that concentrates the reins of economic power in the hands of a few people - so that is the root problem that has to be attacked. Reservations are a treatment for the symptom at best, and vote bank politics at worst.See More
Vaibhav Wasnik
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Also I am not sure about the statements claiming that reservations hurt. Because without reservations or policies along that line, development would be centred only around the uppercastes, with crumbs falling in to the hands of the majority... of the population. That would in essence constitute slavery. I mean one of the definitions of slavery that come up on http://www.thefreedictionary.com/slavery
are
"slavery [ˈsleɪvərɪ]
n
1. (Law) the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune."
replace person with group and that is the condition you have in india.
Also, from a pure capitalistic perspective, reservations have been more beneficial, because compared to uppercastes who just invest most of their wealth in to stationary assets such as jwellery, savings etc, on an average whatever a lowercaste guy spends what he earns, be it television, motorcycles etc, or spending on getting his close relative set up a small buisness etc. The money earned immediately keeps flowing in to the economy, stimulating the demand side more strongly. You have to realize that lowecastes as a market are completely unexploited and the fact that caste as a structure really is more cross connected of any other defintions applied to indian society make it as a natural choice when tapping in to the unexploited market power of india goes. Hiring from disadvantaged castes would lead to stronger demand curves leading to stronger development of industry.See More
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Vaibhav Wasnik
But people with donation based colleges do end up with similar jobs as non-donation based colleges, else no one would be crazy to invest in higher costs involved in getting educated at these places, unless returns of equal or larger magnitu...de were there in the future.
I am not really sure that the word to describe the agitations of the gujjars should be plainly suggested as being freebies, because what they are fighting for is for the oppurtunity towards higher education and participation in a modern society. These are struggles for scarce resource of government funded higher education and since by definition the government is representative of the desires of the people, they are agitating when their desires are not been fulfilled even when they exersised the demand through the ballot.
Also, labels such as vote bank politics are merely biased caricatures put up by the uppercaste dominated indian english media. I mean, from a unbiased viewpoint, what that should translate in to, is the will of the people finding it ways in to policy through the ballot.
Now there are obviously two different ways of looking at controversial issues. My way would be to see this as a miracle of democracy, where communities that have been sidelined for centuries, actually are getting a share in the fruits of development of the country.
The other line of thought would be to go the maoist way, where just a 10,000 strong guerilla army is classified as greatest security threat to the nation. I guess I am mixing issues here, but reservations in some sense even being faulty do present some kind of a lip service against revolutions by disadvantaged groups, who really dont have much to lose.See More
Vaibhav Wasnik
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Anyway, how about reservations in places which actually 'should' be having proportionate representation to function properly in all earnest. (Am copying this from another wall post)
Since you are against reservations I think this would go on... deaf ears. But english speaking media insi...de india is completely dominated by uppercastes. Don't u feel that there should be equitable caste proportion representation inside the media. Now, I dont think that the logic of merit really holds water there. Because the media is supposed to report on the people and all the segementations among them. Its suprising that they would report on me, on how i think, what my needs are, without asking me in person :)
I think you will agree that indian media anyway is a laughing stock as far as intelligent unbiased reporting goes, or for that matter actual knowledge of what goes on in the country goes. I mean, shouldn't media be as good as a spy network and which spy network does not employ people who are a part and parcel of the country they are operating in. If the media hardly has any representation among the 85 percent of the country, it just shows that it does not care about the viewpoint of this section.
I do feel that in these regards political parties like BSP are more in tune with the pulse of the people. I mean looking at the fact that the party has just a loyal following of 20 percent in UP, it created such caste equations taht it shot to power. Whether you like the party or not, you cannot disagree about its knowledge of the people it operates within.See More
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Complainer
British government created reservation because they wanted to create clerks for running their empire .. .because they wanted to create a tool to suck our resources and keep us divided ... British education did not give us independnce .... I...t was Gandhiji's effort to raise the pride of the people in our resources, our sprituality, our food, our clothes, our self-esteem that gave us independence ... It was Satsangs that gave us independence ... If you think educated congressmen gave us independence it is another lie that media and politicians have created in your mind ... Freedom is when a dalit believes that he is not a victim at all ...
Education is the solution .... Create schools ... create good primary, secondary, higher secondary education ... have all round growth of kids ... create self esteem ... teach them about our saints and amazing religions ... Pay teachers well ... give them resources ...
Our generation is really getting out of cast mind-set... We are not so much worried about cast as our parents are ... We are really getting out of it ... But politicians do not want that ...See More
I appreciate your spirit in solving issues related to the country. But as you can see from the debate we are having here, we just have 2 completely different viewpoints on the issue.
Would just like to point out a few things. The british lef...t because of substantial losses during WWII making it very costly to hold up rule over their colonies. That is why not just india, but the british let go of all their colonies soon after the second world war.
In case you are interested with regards to Gandhi, there is again an 'Us versus Them' issue here. In case you are interested, here a book written during those times.
http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/41A.What%20Congress%20and%20Gandhi%20Preface.htm
The argument around british giving reservations was made to point out that the claims made by uppercastes against reservations resonate with the claims made by the british against transferring power to the indians, because of their laxity in performances in standardized tests during pre-independence years. And the claim that I am making today is the same claim that uppercastes made in those days that the deal was not about lack of merit, but lack of oppurtunity and hence reservations.
Also, I dont really support an argument that states that what the british did during those days is not being done in india today. The aim towards privatization is pandered around in the line of free market principles, whereas globalized markets are nowhere free. You just have to look at india where in just a span of 15-20 years 30 percent of the GDP has been transferred to an odd 50 corporations. All you have is the east india company substitued by these corporations. If you claim that the move towards privatization was really in spirit of efficiency. I would give you the example of development done by the British/East india company, with the railway systems, parks, church gate in mumbai etc. But finally the development catered more to the british than to the uppercastes (I am not saying indians because if the indian independence movement is critically analyzed, the lowercastes hardly had any say in the movement, even though democratic setup that eventually came up because of the movement did work in the interest of the lowercastes).
The clerks that you mentioned during the british times are the MBAs etc who are catering to the interest of these corporations.
Liberalization has sucked every country dry in the long run. You just have to look at the case of latin america, where all you have are a few 'clerical' classes prospering, whereas majority of the populations are relegated to meagre existence.See More
Complainer
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Please have a look at this book
http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine
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I totally agree with you on capitalism. My vision is not of that. And I am saying we do not need to follow this money rut. This crazy hunger for money ... It is making our govt more corrupt ...There are more important things which we need t...o uphold in our society ... We have a culture ... very ancient ...I mean look at west ... all the money and 70% population suffering from depression ... our villages have dusty roads but there is more love here than anywhere in the world ... If we combine technology with our traditions and uproot the evils in the society thats all we need ... Screw rich man's money ... We need things that keep us together, which make us feel more love for our fellow country men and women ... My only reservation on reservation is that it divides ... It creates the rift ... As you pointed out very nicely with facts that there will be a lot of benefits ... But towards what? Ultimately rift will create more rift ... there will be more unseen divides that we will hit upon ... We need more Gandhi stuff ... pride in what is truly ours ... This time we need to use technology and our rich traditions ... there cannot be progress till we progress together ... otherwise it is greed! We dont need to follow greed!See More
Vaibhav Wasnik
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I dont really get the argument. On one side your saying, let us forget about money, but then you are critisising reservations, when all it aims at curing is monetary differences between different castes in india. If we are to forget about... money, then why not just forget whether reservations exist or not. The rift happens because one section wants to keep all the monetary oppurtunities/resources to themselves and other section wants to redistribute it using the power of vote. Presenting one side's opinion on the issue as plain greed really points to an inherent bias in the argument.See More
Vaibhav Wasnik
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BTW, ur points that reservations being freebies and not an instrument for social change do make seem to have the flavour of validity, in the sense that all these sc/st iit alumni, who are in my friendlist, do find time to comment on all the... inane clips I/each other do post, but somehow shy away from even giving a bit of lip service to policies that actually got them to where they are in society today.
That's one of the prime reason that the other side of the debate has not become mainstream in the mindset of indians irrespective of caste today. How a section of humanity can even rejoice in such shallow existence is beyond me.See More
- Complainer
- Vaibhav, people with donation based degrees do not have the same jobs as those from IITs. People go for them because having a donation based degree is better than not having a degree at all.
An SC/ST guy who converts to Christianity loses h...is reservations. Similarly, poor Christians do not have reservations. This is enough proof that the claim that reservations are for economic empowerment is only a facade put on by the politicians. - I prepare students for the IIT entrance exam. I'd like to share what two students told me:-
Brahmin student, very brilliant: I've been made an outcast in my own country. To hell with India. I'm going abroad ASAP.
SC girl, also very good: Sir,... I feel ashamed to avail of reservations. My parents are not poor, and I hate to see India being divided on the basis of caste. At the same time, availing of reservations is tempting because it significantly improves my changes of clearing the JEE .Of course, reservations hurt. Just talk to thousands of deserving students who have been deprived of quality education. It is the artificial shortage of opportunities created by a crony-capitalist govt that restricts development. In a free market, non-red tape environment, all hard workers will be able to progress without reservations.
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Vaibhav Wasnik
Concerning ur comments on donation colleges and IIT degrees, I will give you a different viewpoint. When we were students in IITB, the topmost software jobs were from amazon, microsoft etc, with postings in america. These jobs generally went to computer science students, who had really good GPAs.When I went to university of arizona. Only two or three iitians made the grad student pool from india. Rest of the students numbering about 150 or more, were from colleges you may never even have heard about. The computer science grad students batch at university of arizona was dominated by indians. And in just 2 years of which they got a masters degree, these guys got jobs in amazon, micrsoft etc. The reason being that american companies want students with american degrees.
The only thing the IIT label do was give you full scholarship to pursue grad school. The rest of the students from indian colleges that you may never even have heard about, had to pay tution fees and living expenses.
So finally money did win. The IIT degree in some sense was trivial, helping you if you could not afford an education in the US. Moral of the story money rules!!!
With your comment about sc/st's converting to christianity not getting benefits of reservation. The reason behind that is the same reason, that the babri masjid was demolished. The issues are made by the uppercastes under the banner of parties such as BJP to tell the lowercastes that the chrisitians and muslims are the enemy and are trying to steal away reservations. Hence there is a plank for these elements to get re-elected. But as soon as they get re-elected, they would intensify privatization, making the lowercastes lose whatever reserved job possibilities that they may have got. The problem is lowercastes fall for these shinnanigans, rather than it being some kind of an inherent inconsistency in the approach as you have pointed out.
Talking about reservations not leading to economic equality. Well, in that regards, I would say the whole independence movement was a farce, as even before independence majority of the country was poor and even after independence the majority of the country is poor. So what was the whole point of it all. Before independence british controlled all the economic reins of the country. Today it is the uppercastes. So why celebrate the independence movement, to glorify transfer of power to uppercastes. And if the uppercastes are the new british, why not call for independence from them, and so on....
Issues, such as reservations or even independence are more about individual communities having a share in the workings of the country, which is a precursor for development of these units. Else a community dominating over the resources really points to slavery as I have talked before.
Also, your comment on these kids who are preparing for this IIT entrance exam, all I have to say that is that plain computational intelligence, does not necessarily translate in to the definition of thinking which constitutes elements such as insight, intution, wisdom etc. If that was the case, all these top college MBAs wouldn't be having heart problems etc because of stresses of some silly deskjobs, whereas uneducated likes of chotta rajan, arun gawli, dawood ibrahim, whose jobs should be the most stressed out, live worry free, even though the former only may have to lose his job and possibly find another, whereas the latter risks losing his life. Also both of these jobs really are about descision making and the latter is more difficult.
Coming to the case of the sc/st girl student of ours. She claims that she feels ashamed of taking reservations. But say tommorow she does not take reservations, does not get in to IITs, but then pays for studying in the US and gets the same job as an IITian would ultimately end up getting, she would not be feeling ashamed. Even though what she ended up doing was taking reservations, only that they are money based.
Also, frankly the biggest jobs that most iitians would eventually dream of getting would be ..let me guess.... possibly end up becoming a hedge fund manager....investment banking...let me guess, which is about guessing, lying, cheating to make your mullah. If she would talk about feeling ashamed of personal profits, let alone profits of her organization, she might as well kiss that dream job goodbye as of now. The whole issue is that she has been brainwashed that reservations are wrong, by the same people who will actually make use of loopholes in pure competition some point in their life.
Talking of your brahmin student, as I have said if you have the money, you dont really lose. But let me ask you another question. You are telling me about talent and deserving stuff. If I ask you a question, how many sc/st/obcs (85 % of the country) students make up your coaching centres. It is but obvious that there might just be sprinkling of such candidates. But then you will claim that you guys have some kind of entrance exams even for your coaching centres. But then I ask you questions as to what schools, what about the family background, where is the caste based divergence really coming from. The questions are not genetic, they just can't be. I have been a student of IITs, and except for a few exceptionally gifted candidates, with appreciable faster speed of computation compared to the rest, who make it to these institutes, majority of the students are just of average intellect, who just have had better oppurtunities, be it access to better coaching centres or to summarise, were in the right place at the right time. Just because it appears that merit is getting plainly compromised because of reservations does not really mean that is the end of the story.
Also as far as talents really go. I am going to be anonymous. But from the sc/st batch that in to IIT Bombay in 97, I dont think the students numbered more than 30. Almost all of them are in the same positions as any average IITian. But I know of 5 personal examples, that for strangely unexpected reasons are at places, that any iitian would sell their diplomas to get to. One of this guys is now the owner of a IT company with 300 white collared employees. Another guy is working in partnership with this dude on other projects. Another guy is the vice-president of marketing in his company. This other guy I spoke to who is in the US today, told me that he used to report to the head of the indian branch of the multinational company, he used to work for, and if he recommended someone, they would hire the guy without interview for a job with a yearly salary of 3-4 lakhs. This other guy is on the board of 3 banks.
PS: I am not saying that the brahmin kid is wrong. All I am saying is that there are 2 equally consistent viewpoints that are opposite to each other and you just choose sides.
Also talking about the free market. The word is just thrown up as some kind of a whole grail, when the matter of fact is that none of the capitalist markets operating around the world are actually free. Sure there may be anti-monopoly laws here and there, but in essence the markets are not free.
Free markets are generally preferred to planned economies, because of the idea that it is difficult to exactly predict the demand and supply sides of an economy, which would maximise the output, leading to affluence of everyone involved. Markets left to themselves outperform. The idealized situation, which free market ultimately aim for is where every person has 'ample and workable' oppurtunities to use and improve over conventional means of production, but at the same time, does not use his position to hamper the production abilities of someone else entreprising. now please don't simply apply this to reservation hampering an uppercaste guy from getting his talents out. Because these happen to be individualistic anomalies. What counts as far as the free market argument goes is that atleast the various communities that make up the society are equally equiped, with oppurtunities for progressing and no community has more of the oppurtunities compared to the other. Else, you have a divergence from the ultimate aims of a free market, where excess of opprutunities feeds on to itself, leading to monopolising of resources of production. In india we are seeing this at the caste level. But also from a class level things are not different. With 30 percent of GDP completely in the hands of some odd 50 corporations, you really are not even in a position to begin talking about a free market model. This is also reflected in statistic, with the gap of development between the rich and the poor increasing by the day, something that is anti-thesis to what a free market claims to change.
A side note on the brahmin student. He is a kid now, so I shouldnt make a comment against him. But this is what is generally going to happen. Say he loses because of reservation, but being brilliant he makes money anyway. Tommorow when times comes for marriage, he would against go for same caste based marriage, produce another pure brahmin kid and then complain even more against caste based reservation. Reservations also act as a side incentive to change the root cause that perpetuate them, caste based segmentations in the society. But then, uppercastes want to perpetuate caste, but then talk against reservations.
The only difference with the times of old, is that today's eklavyas don't cut of their thumbs plainly because a dronacharya told them to.
Also even though it sounds so, I am not being satirical towards the sc/st girl student of yours. But there is one plain truth of life. This the truth that people who have actually seen life will tell her. If this was plainly my observation, then I wouldn't publish it here. But these wordings from a old bollywood song summarize it really well
Yahan chor hai saab, koi sadh nahi
Sukh jaan le tu, sukh apradh nahi.
In response to protest by BHU sc/st students regarding scrapping of reservations in promotions
ComplainerThis is disgusting. Reservation should totally be thrown out. How can someone come out and rally for reservation and that also after being given a chance to get higher education, unless they belived that they were incompetent.
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Vaibhav Wasnik What incompetence man. It is distribution of resources according to share in the country. Hell, let me just copy and paste something that I had written on a previous post that you replied too.
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Vaibhav Wasnik
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I hate facebook that it doesnt store all the wall debates. I
would have just copied and pasted a previous post on a similar topic.
...Well about yoru comment "Dude u r right in saying the control is still in hands of upper caste , but it will a...lways remain so because of their historical inheritance and their dominant numbers and share in every institution." That is what reservations are supposed to change. Only thing is that the supreme court which is supposed to make the constitution tune up in line with the will of the people, just manipulates the wordings in the document to apply an upper limit of 50 percent on reservations. That too when these reservations benefit 85 percent of the country's population. But then the courts are dominated by uppercastes so what can be expected.
Your comment on equal competition in a free market, somehow does not look at what even determines competition. Right from entry in to professinoal colleges, where manufactured intelligence from coaching centres really rule the roster. Have you ever questioned as to how many dalits even are present in these coaching centres, so that an equiproportional candidates make it in to professional colleges. And somehow in all this merit talk, the talk about privately owned donation based colleges are never even mentioned, when the number of seats in these colleges is far more than reserved seats in government colleges. Also the only marks that matter are the marks of money in your wallet, for admission in to these colleges.
Next when you go up the ladder. Jobs in the private sector are all about contacts. I don't have to write a big essay to tell you, why websites such as linkedin are the sugar among corporate professionals. Saying that jobs in the private sector are really about open competition is not really understanding the mechanics of hiring in these sectors.
Also, when did the CEO's of the top corporate institutions like Reliance, Tata's etc had to compete in an open competition to get their respective jobs. The only competition they had to succumb to was the proof that they were the blood heirs of their fathers companies, irrespective of their professional qualifications. It is suprising when these same corporations talk against reservations for jobs quite down the ladder in their companies.
Also you have to realize that in the history of india, reservations were first utilized by the uppercastes during the british times, when cuttoff's had to be reduced by the british government as uppercastes indian could qualify to the civil services exams
http://www.chandrabhanprasad.com/frmHistoricalDocuments.aspx
Uppercastes wanted independence from british then. I dont even think dalits are asking something similar.
To close, the issue really is about capturing power in the economic sectors of the country. The problem about under performance of sc/sts is because of psychological harrasment faced by them in the educational institutions, rather than talents. Statements about open competitions are really about not thinking the issue clearly, because lot of intelligence that gets tested is really manufactured intelligence, which is more about nurture at home and expensive tutions, which the dalits are not even close to having a substantial amount of.See More
about an hour ago · LikeUnlike
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Vaibhav Wasnik
Also a few more points. in the private sector experience gets u paid more. But what are the chances of anyone even remembering what they did 2-3 years back.
Finally, jobs in almost most sectors are about repetitious learning. A guy from res...ervations or a general category in a year or 2 would be performing the same amount in useful output, because of human brains capability towards learning from repetitions. The questions against reservations and efficiency just become trivial after digesting this simple fact.See MoreSee More
· · 1 personAmol Ragade likes this.
Vaibhav Wasnik
Also,
Everyone has their personal opinions. But what about opinions of people that have actually been known for excellence.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/jun03/06-23diversityjudgmentstatementpr.mspx
...Here is microsoft supporting similar policies to reservations in america, where they rightly point out that in the age of manufactured intelligence, varied backgrounds of their prospective employee pool does play an important role in understanding the marketplace and coming up with ideas that do give the company an edge in a global/local marketplace. That is why microsoft, GE and other industries countersued a ruling which would have made it illegal for university of michigan to allow race as a determining factor in the student admissions.See More
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ComplainerWhy should Tata give his company to a dalit. For that matter to even a bramin or a rajput. For that matter why should a dalit businessman give his business to any outsider.
Government opportunities cannot be decided on cast. They have to be... decided on merit. Reservation to get an opportunity to perform is good. But it should stop there. After that you perform.
What has to happen is education reform where paid seat are also thrown out. We need positive reforms not reservations.
This historical problem of dalits not getting opportunity was due to lack of education. Today we are educated and everyone recognizes that talent and skills prevail. If I am a businessman I will be really foolish not to recruit a smart guy. I will not care whether he is dalit or bramhin or anything. Division is an old thinking. Collaboration and growth is the new mantra.
Repetitive job theory really doesnt make sense, in an age where we are talking about innovation and growth, where competition is getting agressive day by day. We need to encourage innovation and entrepreuneship rather than division and mediocrity. Solution is never in division.See More
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Vaibhav Wasnik
Your first paragraph goes against the spirit of what ur other paragraphs are trying to state. I am saying that if the CEO of a company does not get elected through competition, why can't arguments given in your later paragraphs not point to... the fact that mediocrity of the highest order is being encouraged in the working of the company. To frame it in a different way. If the CEO (the highest paid guy) himself is not a product of direct competition, how can he complain of performance if people down the line are hired through reservation.
If you read through my comments clearly, you should realize that I am not speaking against merit. I am talking about merit being made as an excuse to get a large chunk of the country population out of the job market. As I said before, merit in this day and age in india is manufactured intelligence, which is churned through specialized coaching centres. Now in these specialized coaching centres, what is the percentage of dalits that even make it there.
Let us face a basic fact. The intelligence of human race, irrespective of caste, country or otherwise falls in the gaussian curve. Only a extreme minority happens to be near the tails of extreme intelligence, however it is measured. These guys anyway don't lose to reservation or monetary crutches and generally happen to be the world leaders or close to the same in their respective fields. Rest of the population falls in the middle of the gaussian curve be it general or reserved category and the only difference that we see in performance is due to nurture factors. The merit that actually comes up in an examination is more about this nurture than inherent merit.
To give you practical examples. Take the case of IIT mumbai. There was reservation there too. Most of the sc/st students underperform, because majority of them are not products of specialized coaching centres, along with the pscychological crutches of looking down upon. The issue is what happens after they graduate. 10 years since I have graduated from that place and from whom I have interacted from genera and reserved category side, I dont see much difference in where these people have reached in their respective professional areas. I can give you examples of toppers in corporate spheres not making even 1 fifth of the mullah that some preparatory course guys are making.
Your claim that repetitive job theory does not make sense, does not go against what I am trying to say. The faculties that determine competition in this day and age, cannot be measured through standardized tests, as the people at microsoft feel and hence the very defintion of merit is suspect. Reservations or affirmative actions can act as a way of getting people from varied backgrounds and ideas and hence help in competition, rather than deter it, when looked at a little more depth. Speed of logical computation does not really hold the key to huge profits in this global marketplace, but innovative ideas do. The potential for innovative ideas and the strength to carry through them are abilities that are very much out of the purview of measurable tests.See More
· · 1 personAmol Ragade likes this.
ComplainerBut see Microsoft is using it for some other purpose. It is not judging somebodies intelligence based on race. It simply wants a multicultural representation because that is truly important in today's global scenario. It is saying we respec...t all. It is not out of the sense of being victimized. There is a difference. It is a unifying act. Compare it to reservation which is a dividing act.
I am not denying the fact that dalits were not harassed historically. That was for power and politics. It was wrong. It costed us so much that as a nation we are still struggling. But creating more division is not the way out. As the next generation what do we choose - collaboration or division.See More
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I agree that there is not much difference 10 years down the line between general and reserved category person. That is more a reason why the reservation should not be there for jobs and post grad education. Everything works out. A single op...portunity is good enough. You cannot keep on dividing till the end. It will lead us nowhere.
TATAs have a family owned business. Why should they go for anyone else. I feel it is a wrong example. Infosys selects CEO on merit. That is the right example. Govt is not a family owned business.See More
·
Vaibhav Wasnik
I have suggestd, the only way to end reservations is intercaste marriages. In india even in the cities, marriages are arranged. I mean a uppercaste person marrying a lowercaste person actually would gain, in the sense that his kids would ge...t advantage of reservation. Isnt the same gain, that causes an uppercaste person to marry a richer uppercaste person. If intercaste marriages become the norm, in a generation or 2, reservations would become trivial. However, the educated uppercastes want to preserve their own caste, but still want to critize reservations.
Also the thing is divisions are already there. It is all about control. A minority uppercaste population controls the economic centres inside india. A truly engligtened society would ensure that a future society where equitable distribution of resources takes place among all the sub-divisions in the society. End caste that is when reservations will end. Else you will always have a guy like kanshiram coming up and saying "As long as caste exists, I will use it for the betterment of my people".See More
· · 1 personLoading...
Vaibhav Wasnik
But microsoft takes race in to consideration in hiring too. They don't take the grades of a candidate from a minority community being low as an issue to say that the guy does not have merit, but do realize the conditions from which this min...ority candidate did come up in today's society and hence, use this sense of struggle to even come up to the stage of even coming for an interview as an added qualification. Such an openeness is not practised in india today.
Microsoft's impetus on merit does not plainly look at grades earned, but also looks at a social backlog of belonging to a particular race and that does get factored in to the hiring process. That is why, they went agaisnt the people that sued the university of michigan, because a white kid who got higher marks than a black kid did not get admitted. Microsoft countersued as they felt that they would not be able to hire educated minorites if affirmative actions policies were not taken up at educational institutions.See More
·
ComplainerIntercast marriage is a good one .... It will happen on its own ... As the society opens up ...
·
But would US govt do this ... I am pretty sure what Microsoft is doing, infosys can also do that .... and what matters the most is the diversity of culture they want to bring because they deal with multi-cultural clients... they need that r...epresentation in their business... It is a smart move...
Look at the origin of cast system in India. It was based on expertise. Like how in industry we have guilds - a specialization. Some people politicised it and gave it a bad shape and we suffered forever because of it.
Today's scenario is to bring people with lack of education at par, so that they can make best use of the democracy that they live in.See More
·
Vaibhav Wasnik US govt does this too. American companeis initially were against affirmative actions, when they were implemented as a law in america in the 70s, but they gradually saw it as an oppurtutnity to exploit minority based markets. Indian companies haven't really started pooling in to the 85 percent of the market made up of sc/st/obcs. If I am not wrong, most of the buisness really is about satisfying non-indian clients.
·
That is true we are not catering to our own markets. We are not innovating for us. We need to. I am pretty sure when we do that we will not even need reservation. Things will improve by virtue of providing better services and products for our own people. Thats where govt has to put money into: new in-house innovations. But they are corrupt and will not do that.
·
@I would say lets have march against corruption. Let us support Anna Hazare. A lot of youth can unite for once cause that can change this country
·
Vaibhav Wasnik
just curious
there is corruption against the political establishment. Am curious whether you have heard about the corruption in the media. Since you are against reservations I think this would go on deaf ears. But english speaking media insi...de india is completely dominated by uppercastes. Don't u feel that there should be equitable caste proportion representation inside the media. Now, I dont think that the logic of merit really holds water there. Because the media is supposed to report on the people and all the segementations among them. Its suprising that they would report on me, on how i think, what my needs are, without asking me in person :)
I think you will agree that indian media anyway is a laughing stock as far as intelligent unbiased reporting goes, or for that matter actual knowledge of what goes on in the country goes. I mean, shouldn't media be as good as a spy network and which spy network does not employ people who are a part and parcel of the country they are operating in. If the media hardly has any representation among the 85 percent of the country, it just shows that it does not care about the viewpoint of this section. And if the organ of public dissent is so corrupted, I dont see the rational point at blaming the political force. Monetary corruption in my mind is definetly second to intellectual corruption.
I do feel that in these regards political parties like BSP are more in tune with the pulse of the people. I mean looking at the fact that the party has just a loyal following of 20 percent in UP, it created such caste equations taht it shot to power. Whether you like the party or not, you cannot disagree about its knowledge of the people it operates within.See More
·
Complainer Media is blind to a big extent these days... But that doesnt justify reservation... Yes fight against corruption of all sorts... It definitely has to end in politics... Well if our politicians had not kept the hard earned money of you and m...e and many of our dalit brothers and sisters in Swiss Bank, a lot of these problems could have been solved. There wouldn't have been so much struggle for resources... The politicians who glorify resrevation do not want to educate people and do not want equality... they want separation ...And they are the ones hoarding money, building palaces and their statues and monuments .... They got pulse of people? They keep people uneducated and poor ... They create disruption in the minds ... And yes the urban youth has to rise today for their rural counterparts and pull them up in education and collaborate with them ... This will not happen with reservation ... Reservation will create a sense of rift in youth ... There will be animomisty ... If a politician claims he is solving the problem why doesn't he take this path of education when s/he has these resources to achieve them ...
Shooting to power has no merit in it .... The real merit is in serving and education ... Are there any less differences already that we need reservation to create more differences .. religion is such an issue ... conversion is another ... girl child abortion ... terrorism ... Who cares these politicians shoot to power ... if they are corrupt... they got to go down now ...
Vaibhav WasnikWell,
just blaming politicians as money hungry gluttons does not do full justice to the spectrum of corruption involved in indian polity. You mentioned, religion. Well, babri masjid became an issue soon after the mandal comission report was adopted. The uppercastes feared a complete backlash from 85 percent of the country making up the lowercastes. And hence under the banner of the BJP, the uppercastes rallied on ram janmabhoomi issue. To quote Mr Vajpaee " they got mandal so we got karmandal". The muscle power involved in hindutva brigades, be it the shiv sena, bajrang dal etc, comes from the sc/st/obc communities. The uneducated naive among these communities dont even realize why all of a sudden in the 90s only the mandir issue became all so important.
And what ultimately happened when BJP came to power. It intensified the sale of public sector companies. Mind you, that included even profit making companies. Why is that, so that hiring of these same sc/st/obcs stalls. I mean once you privatise the company, no question of reservation comes up. The leaders of BJP didnt make money for themselves, but made sure that their caste dominates in the economic sphere. That too by lying about the actual intentions on which they ran for power. As I said, the issue is not plainly monetary corruption. But moral corruption. Unfortunately, this open secret is never spilled in any of the media outlets.
·
Vaibhav Wasnik What incompetence man. It is distribution of resources according to share in the country. Hell, let me just copy and paste something that I had written on a previous post that you replied too.
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Vaibhav Wasnik
#
I hate facebook that it doesnt store all the wall debates. I
would have just copied and pasted a previous post on a similar topic.
...Well about yoru comment "Dude u r right in saying the control is still in hands of upper caste , but it will a...lways remain so because of their historical inheritance and their dominant numbers and share in every institution." That is what reservations are supposed to change. Only thing is that the supreme court which is supposed to make the constitution tune up in line with the will of the people, just manipulates the wordings in the document to apply an upper limit of 50 percent on reservations. That too when these reservations benefit 85 percent of the country's population. But then the courts are dominated by uppercastes so what can be expected.
Your comment on equal competition in a free market, somehow does not look at what even determines competition. Right from entry in to professinoal colleges, where manufactured intelligence from coaching centres really rule the roster. Have you ever questioned as to how many dalits even are present in these coaching centres, so that an equiproportional candidates make it in to professional colleges. And somehow in all this merit talk, the talk about privately owned donation based colleges are never even mentioned, when the number of seats in these colleges is far more than reserved seats in government colleges. Also the only marks that matter are the marks of money in your wallet, for admission in to these colleges.
Next when you go up the ladder. Jobs in the private sector are all about contacts. I don't have to write a big essay to tell you, why websites such as linkedin are the sugar among corporate professionals. Saying that jobs in the private sector are really about open competition is not really understanding the mechanics of hiring in these sectors.
Also, when did the CEO's of the top corporate institutions like Reliance, Tata's etc had to compete in an open competition to get their respective jobs. The only competition they had to succumb to was the proof that they were the blood heirs of their fathers companies, irrespective of their professional qualifications. It is suprising when these same corporations talk against reservations for jobs quite down the ladder in their companies.
Also you have to realize that in the history of india, reservations were first utilized by the uppercastes during the british times, when cuttoff's had to be reduced by the british government as uppercastes indian could qualify to the civil services exams
http://www.chandrabhanprasad.com/frmHistoricalDocuments.aspx
Uppercastes wanted independence from british then. I dont even think dalits are asking something similar.
To close, the issue really is about capturing power in the economic sectors of the country. The problem about under performance of sc/sts is because of psychological harrasment faced by them in the educational institutions, rather than talents. Statements about open competitions are really about not thinking the issue clearly, because lot of intelligence that gets tested is really manufactured intelligence, which is more about nurture at home and expensive tutions, which the dalits are not even close to having a substantial amount of.See More
about an hour ago · LikeUnlike
#
Vaibhav Wasnik
Also a few more points. in the private sector experience gets u paid more. But what are the chances of anyone even remembering what they did 2-3 years back.
Finally, jobs in almost most sectors are about repetitious learning. A guy from res...ervations or a general category in a year or 2 would be performing the same amount in useful output, because of human brains capability towards learning from repetitions. The questions against reservations and efficiency just become trivial after digesting this simple fact.See MoreSee More
· · 1 personAmol Ragade likes this.
Vaibhav Wasnik
Also,
Everyone has their personal opinions. But what about opinions of people that have actually been known for excellence.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/jun03/06-23diversityjudgmentstatementpr.mspx
...Here is microsoft supporting similar policies to reservations in america, where they rightly point out that in the age of manufactured intelligence, varied backgrounds of their prospective employee pool does play an important role in understanding the marketplace and coming up with ideas that do give the company an edge in a global/local marketplace. That is why microsoft, GE and other industries countersued a ruling which would have made it illegal for university of michigan to allow race as a determining factor in the student admissions.See More
·
ComplainerWhy should Tata give his company to a dalit. For that matter to even a bramin or a rajput. For that matter why should a dalit businessman give his business to any outsider.
Government opportunities cannot be decided on cast. They have to be... decided on merit. Reservation to get an opportunity to perform is good. But it should stop there. After that you perform.
What has to happen is education reform where paid seat are also thrown out. We need positive reforms not reservations.
This historical problem of dalits not getting opportunity was due to lack of education. Today we are educated and everyone recognizes that talent and skills prevail. If I am a businessman I will be really foolish not to recruit a smart guy. I will not care whether he is dalit or bramhin or anything. Division is an old thinking. Collaboration and growth is the new mantra.
Repetitive job theory really doesnt make sense, in an age where we are talking about innovation and growth, where competition is getting agressive day by day. We need to encourage innovation and entrepreuneship rather than division and mediocrity. Solution is never in division.See More
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Vaibhav Wasnik
Your first paragraph goes against the spirit of what ur other paragraphs are trying to state. I am saying that if the CEO of a company does not get elected through competition, why can't arguments given in your later paragraphs not point to... the fact that mediocrity of the highest order is being encouraged in the working of the company. To frame it in a different way. If the CEO (the highest paid guy) himself is not a product of direct competition, how can he complain of performance if people down the line are hired through reservation.
If you read through my comments clearly, you should realize that I am not speaking against merit. I am talking about merit being made as an excuse to get a large chunk of the country population out of the job market. As I said before, merit in this day and age in india is manufactured intelligence, which is churned through specialized coaching centres. Now in these specialized coaching centres, what is the percentage of dalits that even make it there.
Let us face a basic fact. The intelligence of human race, irrespective of caste, country or otherwise falls in the gaussian curve. Only a extreme minority happens to be near the tails of extreme intelligence, however it is measured. These guys anyway don't lose to reservation or monetary crutches and generally happen to be the world leaders or close to the same in their respective fields. Rest of the population falls in the middle of the gaussian curve be it general or reserved category and the only difference that we see in performance is due to nurture factors. The merit that actually comes up in an examination is more about this nurture than inherent merit.
To give you practical examples. Take the case of IIT mumbai. There was reservation there too. Most of the sc/st students underperform, because majority of them are not products of specialized coaching centres, along with the pscychological crutches of looking down upon. The issue is what happens after they graduate. 10 years since I have graduated from that place and from whom I have interacted from genera and reserved category side, I dont see much difference in where these people have reached in their respective professional areas. I can give you examples of toppers in corporate spheres not making even 1 fifth of the mullah that some preparatory course guys are making.
Your claim that repetitive job theory does not make sense, does not go against what I am trying to say. The faculties that determine competition in this day and age, cannot be measured through standardized tests, as the people at microsoft feel and hence the very defintion of merit is suspect. Reservations or affirmative actions can act as a way of getting people from varied backgrounds and ideas and hence help in competition, rather than deter it, when looked at a little more depth. Speed of logical computation does not really hold the key to huge profits in this global marketplace, but innovative ideas do. The potential for innovative ideas and the strength to carry through them are abilities that are very much out of the purview of measurable tests.See More
· · 1 personAmol Ragade likes this.
ComplainerBut see Microsoft is using it for some other purpose. It is not judging somebodies intelligence based on race. It simply wants a multicultural representation because that is truly important in today's global scenario. It is saying we respec...t all. It is not out of the sense of being victimized. There is a difference. It is a unifying act. Compare it to reservation which is a dividing act.
I am not denying the fact that dalits were not harassed historically. That was for power and politics. It was wrong. It costed us so much that as a nation we are still struggling. But creating more division is not the way out. As the next generation what do we choose - collaboration or division.See More
·
I agree that there is not much difference 10 years down the line between general and reserved category person. That is more a reason why the reservation should not be there for jobs and post grad education. Everything works out. A single op...portunity is good enough. You cannot keep on dividing till the end. It will lead us nowhere.
TATAs have a family owned business. Why should they go for anyone else. I feel it is a wrong example. Infosys selects CEO on merit. That is the right example. Govt is not a family owned business.See More
·
Vaibhav Wasnik
I have suggestd, the only way to end reservations is intercaste marriages. In india even in the cities, marriages are arranged. I mean a uppercaste person marrying a lowercaste person actually would gain, in the sense that his kids would ge...t advantage of reservation. Isnt the same gain, that causes an uppercaste person to marry a richer uppercaste person. If intercaste marriages become the norm, in a generation or 2, reservations would become trivial. However, the educated uppercastes want to preserve their own caste, but still want to critize reservations.
Also the thing is divisions are already there. It is all about control. A minority uppercaste population controls the economic centres inside india. A truly engligtened society would ensure that a future society where equitable distribution of resources takes place among all the sub-divisions in the society. End caste that is when reservations will end. Else you will always have a guy like kanshiram coming up and saying "As long as caste exists, I will use it for the betterment of my people".See More
· · 1 personLoading...
Vaibhav Wasnik
But microsoft takes race in to consideration in hiring too. They don't take the grades of a candidate from a minority community being low as an issue to say that the guy does not have merit, but do realize the conditions from which this min...ority candidate did come up in today's society and hence, use this sense of struggle to even come up to the stage of even coming for an interview as an added qualification. Such an openeness is not practised in india today.
Microsoft's impetus on merit does not plainly look at grades earned, but also looks at a social backlog of belonging to a particular race and that does get factored in to the hiring process. That is why, they went agaisnt the people that sued the university of michigan, because a white kid who got higher marks than a black kid did not get admitted. Microsoft countersued as they felt that they would not be able to hire educated minorites if affirmative actions policies were not taken up at educational institutions.See More
·
ComplainerIntercast marriage is a good one .... It will happen on its own ... As the society opens up ...
·
But would US govt do this ... I am pretty sure what Microsoft is doing, infosys can also do that .... and what matters the most is the diversity of culture they want to bring because they deal with multi-cultural clients... they need that r...epresentation in their business... It is a smart move...
Look at the origin of cast system in India. It was based on expertise. Like how in industry we have guilds - a specialization. Some people politicised it and gave it a bad shape and we suffered forever because of it.
Today's scenario is to bring people with lack of education at par, so that they can make best use of the democracy that they live in.See More
·
Vaibhav Wasnik US govt does this too. American companeis initially were against affirmative actions, when they were implemented as a law in america in the 70s, but they gradually saw it as an oppurtutnity to exploit minority based markets. Indian companies haven't really started pooling in to the 85 percent of the market made up of sc/st/obcs. If I am not wrong, most of the buisness really is about satisfying non-indian clients.
·
That is true we are not catering to our own markets. We are not innovating for us. We need to. I am pretty sure when we do that we will not even need reservation. Things will improve by virtue of providing better services and products for our own people. Thats where govt has to put money into: new in-house innovations. But they are corrupt and will not do that.
·
@I would say lets have march against corruption. Let us support Anna Hazare. A lot of youth can unite for once cause that can change this country
·
Vaibhav Wasnik
just curious
there is corruption against the political establishment. Am curious whether you have heard about the corruption in the media. Since you are against reservations I think this would go on deaf ears. But english speaking media insi...de india is completely dominated by uppercastes. Don't u feel that there should be equitable caste proportion representation inside the media. Now, I dont think that the logic of merit really holds water there. Because the media is supposed to report on the people and all the segementations among them. Its suprising that they would report on me, on how i think, what my needs are, without asking me in person :)
I think you will agree that indian media anyway is a laughing stock as far as intelligent unbiased reporting goes, or for that matter actual knowledge of what goes on in the country goes. I mean, shouldn't media be as good as a spy network and which spy network does not employ people who are a part and parcel of the country they are operating in. If the media hardly has any representation among the 85 percent of the country, it just shows that it does not care about the viewpoint of this section. And if the organ of public dissent is so corrupted, I dont see the rational point at blaming the political force. Monetary corruption in my mind is definetly second to intellectual corruption.
I do feel that in these regards political parties like BSP are more in tune with the pulse of the people. I mean looking at the fact that the party has just a loyal following of 20 percent in UP, it created such caste equations taht it shot to power. Whether you like the party or not, you cannot disagree about its knowledge of the people it operates within.See More
·
Complainer Media is blind to a big extent these days... But that doesnt justify reservation... Yes fight against corruption of all sorts... It definitely has to end in politics... Well if our politicians had not kept the hard earned money of you and m...e and many of our dalit brothers and sisters in Swiss Bank, a lot of these problems could have been solved. There wouldn't have been so much struggle for resources... The politicians who glorify resrevation do not want to educate people and do not want equality... they want separation ...And they are the ones hoarding money, building palaces and their statues and monuments .... They got pulse of people? They keep people uneducated and poor ... They create disruption in the minds ... And yes the urban youth has to rise today for their rural counterparts and pull them up in education and collaborate with them ... This will not happen with reservation ... Reservation will create a sense of rift in youth ... There will be animomisty ... If a politician claims he is solving the problem why doesn't he take this path of education when s/he has these resources to achieve them ...
Shooting to power has no merit in it .... The real merit is in serving and education ... Are there any less differences already that we need reservation to create more differences .. religion is such an issue ... conversion is another ... girl child abortion ... terrorism ... Who cares these politicians shoot to power ... if they are corrupt... they got to go down now ...
Vaibhav WasnikWell,
just blaming politicians as money hungry gluttons does not do full justice to the spectrum of corruption involved in indian polity. You mentioned, religion. Well, babri masjid became an issue soon after the mandal comission report was adopted. The uppercastes feared a complete backlash from 85 percent of the country making up the lowercastes. And hence under the banner of the BJP, the uppercastes rallied on ram janmabhoomi issue. To quote Mr Vajpaee " they got mandal so we got karmandal". The muscle power involved in hindutva brigades, be it the shiv sena, bajrang dal etc, comes from the sc/st/obc communities. The uneducated naive among these communities dont even realize why all of a sudden in the 90s only the mandir issue became all so important.
And what ultimately happened when BJP came to power. It intensified the sale of public sector companies. Mind you, that included even profit making companies. Why is that, so that hiring of these same sc/st/obcs stalls. I mean once you privatise the company, no question of reservation comes up. The leaders of BJP didnt make money for themselves, but made sure that their caste dominates in the economic sphere. That too by lying about the actual intentions on which they ran for power. As I said, the issue is not plainly monetary corruption. But moral corruption. Unfortunately, this open secret is never spilled in any of the media outlets.
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