Monday, March 14, 2011

In response to protest by BHU sc/st students regarding scrapping of reservations in promotions

ComplainerThis is disgusting. Reservation should totally be thrown out. How can someone come out and rally for reservation and that also after being given a chance to get higher education, unless they belived that they were incompetent.

Vaibhav Wasnik What incompetence man. It is distribution of resources according to share in the country. Hell, let me just copy and paste something that I had written on a previous post that you replied too.

Vaibhav Wasnik
I hate facebook that it doesnt store all the wall debates. I

would have just copied and pasted a previous post on a similar topic.

...Well about yoru comment "Dude u r right in saying the control is still in hands of upper caste , but it will a...lways remain so because of their historical inheritance and their dominant numbers and share in every institution." That is what reservations are supposed to change. Only thing is that the supreme court which is supposed to make the constitution tune up in line with the will of the people, just manipulates the wordings in the document to apply an upper limit of 50 percent on reservations. That too when these reservations benefit 85 percent of the country's population. But then the courts are dominated by uppercastes so what can be expected.

Your comment on equal competition in a free market, somehow does not look at what even determines competition. Right from entry in to professinoal colleges, where manufactured intelligence from coaching centres really rule the roster. Have you ever questioned as to how many dalits even are present in these coaching centres, so that an equiproportional candidates make it in to professional colleges. And somehow in all this merit talk, the talk about privately owned donation based colleges are never even mentioned, when the number of seats in these colleges is far more than reserved seats in government colleges. Also the only marks that matter are the marks of money in your wallet, for admission in to these colleges.

Next when you go up the ladder. Jobs in the private sector are all about contacts. I don't have to write a big essay to tell you, why websites such as linkedin are the sugar among corporate professionals. Saying that jobs in the private sector are really about open competition is not really understanding the mechanics of hiring in these sectors.

Also, when did the CEO's of the top corporate institutions like Reliance, Tata's etc had to compete in an open competition to get their respective jobs. The only competition they had to succumb to was the proof that they were the blood heirs of their fathers companies, irrespective of their professional qualifications. It is suprising when these same corporations talk against reservations for jobs quite down the ladder in their companies.

Also you have to realize that in the history of india, reservations were first utilized by the uppercastes during the british times, when cuttoff's had to be reduced by the british government as uppercastes indian could qualify to the civil services exams

Uppercastes wanted independence from british then. I dont even think dalits are asking something similar.

To close, the issue really is about capturing power in the economic sectors of the country. The problem about under performance of sc/sts is because of psychological harrasment faced by them in the educational institutions, rather than talents. Statements about open competitions are really about not thinking the issue clearly, because lot of intelligence that gets tested is really manufactured intelligence, which is more about nurture at home and expensive tutions, which the dalits are not even close to having a substantial amount of.See More
about an hour ago · LikeUnlike
Vaibhav Wasnik
Also a few more points. in the private sector experience gets u paid more. But what are the chances of anyone even remembering what they did 2-3 years back.

Finally, jobs in almost most sectors are about repetitious learning. A guy from res...ervations or a general category in a year or 2 would be performing the same amount in useful output, because of human brains capability towards learning from repetitions. The questions against reservations and efficiency just become trivial after digesting this simple fact.See MoreSee More
· · 1 personAmol Ragade likes this.

Vaibhav Wasnik
Everyone has their personal opinions. But what about opinions of people that have actually been known for excellence.

...Here is microsoft supporting similar policies to reservations in america, where they rightly point out that in the age of manufactured intelligence, varied backgrounds of their prospective employee pool does play an important role in understanding the marketplace and coming up with ideas that do give the company an edge in a global/local marketplace. That is why microsoft, GE and other industries countersued a ruling which would have made it illegal for university of michigan to allow race as a determining factor in the student admissions.See More

ComplainerWhy should Tata give his company to a dalit. For that matter to even a bramin or a rajput. For that matter why should a dalit businessman give his business to any outsider.

Government opportunities cannot be decided on cast. They have to be... decided on merit. Reservation to get an opportunity to perform is good. But it should stop there. After that you perform.

What has to happen is education reform where paid seat are also thrown out. We need positive reforms not reservations.

This historical problem of dalits not getting opportunity was due to lack of education. Today we are educated and everyone recognizes that talent and skills prevail. If I am a businessman I will be really foolish not to recruit a smart guy. I will not care whether he is dalit or bramhin or anything. Division is an old thinking. Collaboration and growth is the new mantra.

Repetitive job theory really doesnt make sense, in an age where we are talking about innovation and growth, where competition is getting agressive day by day. We need to encourage innovation and entrepreuneship rather than division and mediocrity. Solution is never in division.See More

Vaibhav Wasnik
Your first paragraph goes against the spirit of what ur other paragraphs are trying to state. I am saying that if the CEO of a company does not get elected through competition, why can't arguments given in your later paragraphs not point to... the fact that mediocrity of the highest order is being encouraged in the working of the company. To frame it in a different way. If the CEO (the highest paid guy) himself is not a product of direct competition, how can he complain of performance if people down the line are hired through reservation.

If you read through my comments clearly, you should realize that I am not speaking against merit. I am talking about merit being made as an excuse to get a large chunk of the country population out of the job market. As I said before, merit in this day and age in india is manufactured intelligence, which is churned through specialized coaching centres. Now in these specialized coaching centres, what is the percentage of dalits that even make it there.

Let us face a basic fact. The intelligence of human race, irrespective of caste, country or otherwise falls in the gaussian curve. Only a extreme minority happens to be near the tails of extreme intelligence, however it is measured. These guys anyway don't lose to reservation or monetary crutches and generally happen to be the world leaders or close to the same in their respective fields. Rest of the population falls in the middle of the gaussian curve be it general or reserved category and the only difference that we see in performance is due to nurture factors. The merit that actually comes up in an examination is more about this nurture than inherent merit.

To give you practical examples. Take the case of IIT mumbai. There was reservation there too. Most of the sc/st students underperform, because majority of them are not products of specialized coaching centres, along with the pscychological crutches of looking down upon. The issue is what happens after they graduate. 10 years since I have graduated from that place and from whom I have interacted from genera and reserved category side, I dont see much difference in where these people have reached in their respective professional areas. I can give you examples of toppers in corporate spheres not making even 1 fifth of the mullah that some preparatory course guys are making.

Your claim that repetitive job theory does not make sense, does not go against what I am trying to say. The faculties that determine competition in this day and age, cannot be measured through standardized tests, as the people at microsoft feel and hence the very defintion of merit is suspect. Reservations or affirmative actions can act as a way of getting people from varied backgrounds and ideas and hence help in competition, rather than deter it, when looked at a little more depth. Speed of logical computation does not really hold the key to huge profits in this global marketplace, but innovative ideas do. The potential for innovative ideas and the strength to carry through them are abilities that are very much out of the purview of measurable tests.See More
· · 1 personAmol Ragade likes this.

ComplainerBut see Microsoft is using it for some other purpose. It is not judging somebodies intelligence based on race. It simply wants a multicultural representation because that is truly important in today's global scenario. It is saying we respec...t all. It is not out of the sense of being victimized. There is a difference. It is a unifying act. Compare it to reservation which is a dividing act.

I am not denying the fact that dalits were not harassed historically. That was for power and politics. It was wrong. It costed us so much that as a nation we are still struggling. But creating more division is not the way out. As the next generation what do we choose - collaboration or division.See More

I agree that there is not much difference 10 years down the line between general and reserved category person. That is more a reason why the reservation should not be there for jobs and post grad education. Everything works out. A single op...portunity is good enough. You cannot keep on dividing till the end. It will lead us nowhere.

TATAs have a family owned business. Why should they go for anyone else. I feel it is a wrong example. Infosys selects CEO on merit. That is the right example. Govt is not a family owned business.See More

Vaibhav Wasnik
I have suggestd, the only way to end reservations is intercaste marriages. In india even in the cities, marriages are arranged. I mean a uppercaste person marrying a lowercaste person actually would gain, in the sense that his kids would ge...t advantage of reservation. Isnt the same gain, that causes an uppercaste person to marry a richer uppercaste person. If intercaste marriages become the norm, in a generation or 2, reservations would become trivial. However, the educated uppercastes want to preserve their own caste, but still want to critize reservations.

Also the thing is divisions are already there. It is all about control. A minority uppercaste population controls the economic centres inside india. A truly engligtened society would ensure that a future society where equitable distribution of resources takes place among all the sub-divisions in the society. End caste that is when reservations will end. Else you will always have a guy like kanshiram coming up and saying "As long as caste exists, I will use it for the betterment of my people".See More
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Vaibhav Wasnik
But microsoft takes race in to consideration in hiring too. They don't take the grades of a candidate from a minority community being low as an issue to say that the guy does not have merit, but do realize the conditions from which this min...ority candidate did come up in today's society and hence, use this sense of struggle to even come up to the stage of even coming for an interview as an added qualification. Such an openeness is not practised in india today.
Microsoft's impetus on merit does not plainly look at grades earned, but also looks at a social backlog of belonging to a particular race and that does get factored in to the hiring process. That is why, they went agaisnt the people that sued the university of michigan, because a white kid who got higher marks than a black kid did not get admitted. Microsoft countersued as they felt that they would not be able to hire educated minorites if affirmative actions policies were not taken up at educational institutions.See More
ComplainerIntercast marriage is a good one .... It will happen on its own ... As the society opens up ...

But would US govt do this ... I am pretty sure what Microsoft is doing, infosys can also do that .... and what matters the most is the diversity of culture they want to bring because they deal with multi-cultural clients... they need that r...epresentation in their business... It is a smart move...

Look at the origin of cast system in India. It was based on expertise. Like how in industry we have guilds - a specialization. Some people politicised it and gave it a bad shape and we suffered forever because of it.

Today's scenario is to bring people with lack of education at par, so that they can make best use of the democracy that they live in.See More

Vaibhav Wasnik US govt does this too. American companeis initially were against affirmative actions, when they were implemented as a law in america in the 70s, but they gradually saw it as an oppurtutnity to exploit minority based markets. Indian companies haven't really started pooling in to the 85 percent of the market made up of sc/st/obcs. If I am not wrong, most of the buisness really is about satisfying non-indian clients.

That is true we are not catering to our own markets. We are not innovating for us. We need to. I am pretty sure when we do that we will not even need reservation. Things will improve by virtue of providing better services and products for our own people. Thats where govt has to put money into: new in-house innovations. But they are corrupt and will not do that.
@I would say lets have march against corruption. Let us support Anna Hazare. A lot of youth can unite for once cause that can change this country

Vaibhav Wasnik
just curious
there is corruption against the political establishment. Am curious whether you have heard about the corruption in the media. Since you are against reservations I think this would go on deaf ears. But english speaking media india is completely dominated by uppercastes. Don't u feel that there should be equitable caste proportion representation inside the media. Now, I dont think that the logic of merit really holds water there. Because the media is supposed to report on the people and all the segementations among them. Its suprising that they would report on me, on how i think, what my needs are, without asking me in person :)
I think you will agree that indian media anyway is a laughing stock as far as intelligent unbiased reporting goes, or for that matter actual knowledge of what goes on in the country goes. I mean, shouldn't media be as good as a spy network and which spy network does not employ people who are a part and parcel of the country they are operating in. If the media hardly has any representation among the 85 percent of the country, it just shows that it does not care about the viewpoint of this section. And if the organ of public dissent is so corrupted, I dont see the rational point at blaming the political force. Monetary corruption in my mind is definetly second to intellectual corruption.

I do feel that in these regards political parties like BSP are more in tune with the pulse of the people. I mean looking at the fact that the party has just a loyal following of 20 percent in UP, it created such caste equations taht it shot to power. Whether you like the party or not, you cannot disagree about its knowledge of the people it operates within.See More

Complainer Media is blind to a big extent these days... But that doesnt justify reservation... Yes fight against corruption of all sorts... It definitely has to end in politics... Well if our politicians had not kept the hard earned money of you and m...e and many of our dalit brothers and sisters in Swiss Bank, a lot of these problems could have been solved. There wouldn't have been so much struggle for resources... The politicians who glorify resrevation do not want to educate people and do not want equality... they want separation ...And they are the ones hoarding money, building palaces and their statues and monuments .... They got pulse of people? They keep people uneducated and poor ... They create disruption in the minds ... And yes the urban youth has to rise today for their rural counterparts and pull them up in education and collaborate with them ... This will not happen with reservation ... Reservation will create a sense of rift in youth ... There will be animomisty ... If a politician claims he is solving the problem why doesn't he take this path of education when s/he has these resources to achieve them ...

Shooting to power has no merit in it .... The real merit is in serving and education ... Are there any less differences already that we need reservation to create more differences .. religion is such an issue ... conversion is another ... girl child abortion ... terrorism ... Who cares these politicians shoot to power ... if they are corrupt... they got to go down now ...

Vaibhav WasnikWell,
just blaming politicians as money hungry gluttons does not do full justice to the spectrum of corruption involved in indian polity. You mentioned, religion. Well, babri masjid became an issue soon after the mandal comission report was adopted. The uppercastes feared a complete backlash from 85 percent of the country making up the lowercastes. And hence under the banner of the BJP, the uppercastes rallied on ram janmabhoomi issue. To quote Mr Vajpaee " they got mandal so we got karmandal". The muscle power involved in hindutva brigades, be it the shiv sena, bajrang dal etc, comes from the sc/st/obc communities. The uneducated naive among these communities dont even realize why all of a sudden in the 90s only the mandir issue became all so important.

And what ultimately happened when BJP came to power. It intensified the sale of public sector companies. Mind you, that included even profit making companies. Why is that, so that hiring of these same sc/st/obcs stalls. I mean once you privatise the company, no question of reservation comes up. The leaders of BJP didnt make money for themselves, but made sure that their caste dominates in the economic sphere. That too by lying about the actual intentions on which they ran for power. As I said, the issue is not plainly monetary corruption. But moral corruption. Unfortunately, this open secret is never spilled in any of the media outlets.

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